ATAVUS DEI'S PROFILE

author=Yellow Magic link=topic=3324.msg66488#msg66488 date=1236966127
I'm kind of appalled this statement was taken so seriously. Am I supposed to add a XD to every joke I make? Might be a mistake on my part for not saying JUST KIDDING or something but Jesus Christ you guys one doesn't just say a load of bullshit and backs out of it. I won't deny that I said alot of dumb things but I spy some competitors for "Stupidest Internet Person Alive" in this topic.

If you want to enter a heated debate, you better be prepared for the fire. And if you make a post filled with serious statements, people are bound to consider any "jokes" you make to be serious as well. Text just isn't the same medium as speech, dude.

Read again before you start repeating things like "YOU ARE NOT BEING CLEAR *GAH* WHY DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND??? *words*. Really, making mountains out of molehills is not the way to go!

Don't be a dimwit. I have been reading your posts. I know very well you mentioned "it's wrong to steal resources", but at the same time you've been trying to back up that fallacy I've repeatedly brought back to your attention. If you can't get that by this point, I really don't know what else to say.

Did I say anything about a place where you could download images individually? Here, read this and you'll get what I'm saying. Unless you decide to ignore this as well.

Method 1: Disable JavaScript. Bingo, image is unprotected.
Method 2: View source code and go to the image's source code area, then download the image. WTF?
Method 3: Look at Method 2.
Method 4: Look at Method 1.
Method 5: Visually watermarking a game resource doesn't make sense at all. I'll leave you to think about why.

In fact the article itself mentions none of those methods are actually fullproof. Did you read it?

I am honestly finding arguing with you very embarrassing because it's apparent that amaterur game-making makes up at least half of your life. Your talk of "human decency" and "professional ethics" regarding stealing indie resources of all things honestly makes me want to log off the internet and walk far, far, away, in the fear that I'll run into more people like you.

When you assume you make an ass out of u and me. Actually, amateur game making is only one of my hobbies. Why what I'm saying is going past your head is something I can't really understand. I'd like to walk away from people who think like you do, too, but that would be...running from the problem, now wouldn't it?

Have fun going off on another tangent because I'm probably not going to read this topic again. Running a fever while trying to help a very passionate game maker person make sense of what you're saying isn't the best way to go about the evening.

Sorry about the fever, but something like "if you didn't lock it, it's your fault" doesn't go by without being criticized.

Lesson to self: Never post when you're about to leave from work. One tends to cut off things that should've been included. That said, I'm going at this with a sledgehammer.

I'm getting out of this analogy merry-go-round we're having here, since you are obviously missing them. This time, I'm going to use the everyday rules of human decency and be extremely blunt. I could write a long post on our conversation so far, but that would be pointless. Thus, I will sum it up to a few lines:

Me: "If you don't lock it, it's your fault for them being stolen!" is all you're saying? Why is it so hard to just ask for permission?
You: That's right, it's their fault. Humans are evil. <insert big black-and-white false analogy> Oh yeah, RPG Maker isn't where you should use your professional talents!
Me: <insert analogies to enlighten you on why your quote was erroneous> Did my statement before just fly right over your head? By the way, your RPG Maker resources can be used for your portfolio, not really the game itself.
You: Did you read what I posted? (me in head: ...what?) Sorry, but taking a statue from someone's open yard or putting someone else's photo on your site without permission doesn't even relate to what I'm talking about! (me in head again: ...what!?) I mean, after all I'm talking about people taking things they were told not to take! Oh sorry, I know stealing resources is bad, but I'm going to completely ignore what I stated here in later posts!
Me: Your taking things without other amateur artists' permissions is theft and utter disrespect, plain and simple. Your analogy is completely black and white, and assumes everyone is evil. Once again, why is it so hard to respect other people's wishes? You're giving the impression that people have the right to steal resources if they're left unlocked. XP/VX's inability to lock music is just one example of why what you're saying is wrong.
You: <gives lecture on human nature> No, your analogy isn't near the scale as taking other people's hobbyist resources. (me in head: as if big-time theft wasn't equal to small-time theft...wait, isn't it still theft?) Oh yeah, I'm going to ignore what you said about my analogy and change it to something else. And too bad, XP/VX's lack of encrypting music/sounds is a "security flaw". Sorry!
Me: ...<holds back frustration> It being a security flaw doesn't negate the responsibility of keeping your hands in check. And how does posting your resources on a website or other public venue, where they could be downloaded individually, make them all the more protected than putting them unencrypted with your game? Why are you still trying to defend people who steal unencrypted resources?
You: <repeat previous post>

So now, I'm going to state this, using human decency, professional ethics, and the golden rule to back it up. No more bull. If someone specifically states for others NOT to use their work, then taking that work for use in your own project makes you a jerkass, whether or not that work is locked in an archive. I could care less if the original author had put in protection schemes or not, it is still wrong. And as proven with many modern commercial games, no protection scheme is fullproof! Which makes this whole argument totally pointless.

Please tell me, now, how hard it is to understand this? Are you seriously intending to come off this way, or am I misunderstanding you? Do enlighten me, because this standing of yours is an antithesis to what we, as a community, are supposed to be striving for.

author=Yellow Magic link=topic=3324.msg66352#msg66352 date=1236887427
I realise open-source sounds nice but it is not a possibility, thus being the reason I said that I would prefer if people were to use neither commercial nor non-commercial resources in their games; it just made an interesting viewpoint.

Your "open source" relationship came out of left field with seemingly no precedent.

Erm, no. Did you even bother reading the whole of my posts? Although I should point out a typo:

Honestly put I'm of the belief that all work, commercial and non-commercial alike, should be respected and not be used at all by others, if it can be helped.

See bold.

I did, but the "if they didn't lock it they asked for it" statement can be applied to many, many other things besides RPG Maker. People use that argument to justify innumerable amounts of thefts of any kind; just because something is out in the open does not mean it is free for all to take. Take for instance unlocked doors, drawers, containers, and what have you in a stranger's apartment. If you're inside the apartment, you are trusted NOT to take anything out of that apartment without the owner's permission; that kind of action is not only illegal, but completely outside of human morals. And yes, I consider using other artists' original resources from their games without permission to be on a similar level to theft and outright disrespect.

See, the reason I usually refrain from analogies is them being able to be blown out of proportion pretty easily. Sorry but those two examples cannot be compared at all to what I said (especially as they cannot be related to RM at all). You don't just wave your phone in the middle of a dense area in a crummy part of town, this is not the same as putting a statue in your front yard!

My analogy is closer to the matter because said statue in the front yard is owned by the house owner, is out in the open, and is not inside some locked case. Not to mention it is stationary and meant to be shown to the public, just as how an artist's resources are displayed within a game. Your analogy suffers from being a false analogy because it assumes everyone in the RPG Maker community is a dirty thief with no morals whatsoever. If you waved said phone in the public of, say, Times Square New York City where everyone else has a cell phone, then no one would really give a damn about it.

Also, photographers can be quite anal about where their photos are displayed, and how they are displayed. :)

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything?

You said RPG Maker was not the right venue for showcasing professional work. What I stated was that RPG Maker did not need to be involved in showcasing work at all, but instead directly linking your work to one's portfolio. If an artist created one million character sprites for various games, he/she would only need to link directly to the sprites, and not refer to the games they were used in.

Aaaargh well I hope you've read everything else by now!

Read above.

Bottom line if I'm not being clear enough (sorry! I'm not the best when it comes to long posts, I admit!): Stealing resources from anywhere, commercial games or RPG Maker ones alike, is very clearly wrong, but it is up to the individual to decide whether to act in consideration of the ethics of such a practice (e.g. you could look at Feldshlactcst's post (sorry I can't spell your username) about not really caring about the ethics regarding amateur game making).
At the same time, I think people who seriously do not want their resources stolen without their permission should take certain precautionary measures if possible. If this cannot be done with music in XP/VX, fine, but what I've said does not have to relate to harmonic's situation only.

You came off as someone who was looking for reasons to justify pilfering original resources from unlocked games. The music situation really is only the tip of the iceberg; if they don't want you to steal resources, then it shouldn't be a matter of you finding loopholes to give yourself excuses. We're all people who share a common interest in making and playing indie games, why even bother thinking of disrespecting your brethren like that?

Not saying you would do it, now that you've cleared things up...a little, but the point still stands.

"If they didn't protect it, they asked for trouble!"

...Is all I'm getting from that post, Yellow Magic.

Granted, there are people out there who would grab resources and not give a shit whether or not the original artist approved the use or not. Is there anything honestly wrong with respecting the creator's wishes?

Also, on a side note, music and sound effects cannot be protected under XP/VX.

author=Fallen-Griever link=topic=3324.msg66310#msg66310 date=1236864478
However, I think it is far more important that we worry about giving credit to the people making the resources than worry about getting permission for them. We never worry about it when it comes to commercial sources and I don't see why we worry so much about doing it with independent sources. Also, as far as I know, no one is trying to make money from their "original" resources so they aren't physically losing anything if someone pinches their sprite sheet or whatever.

Physical loss is a non sequitur. If I want my game to stand out unique among a crowd of other amateur indie games, then what I'm suffering is not really physical damages, but damages to my game as being an individual. Also, the commercial games where this community has gained its rips from have already had their moments in history; for us, we don't have the luxury of an already-defined mental image backing us up.

I also think that dissemination of resources will actually lead to the creator getting more credit and acclaim in the long-run, especially if the games that use them become popular in their own right. Hell, even if the game isn't popular, if the resource itself is good then people are going to realise it and give credit where credit is due.

Personally, I have an issue with this as even if credit was given in a game which used my resources, the developer may have utilized those resources in either a sloppy manner, or in a style that they were never intended to be used. If such was true, the resources would actually reflect badly on me, as even if the raw resources may have turned out spectacular, the design choices made by the developer could make them seem much worse than they really are.

An example of this would be a chipset rip from Chrono Trigger, and a complete novice at RPG Maker attempting to use it. While Chrono Trigger's tilesets used in their original forms were excellent, the novice's take on them would likely ruin the style, since their design sense is unrefined and as a result he/she would be likely to make maps that are absolutely fugly. Game players tend to focus on the whole more so than the individual parts of maps and tile sets, and I as an artist would hate my creations being used in such a way.

Other people's mileage may vary here, however.